User talk:BuildKitten
First of all, welcome to PvX and whatnot. When you vote, though, you don't have to justify innovation, because it doesn't count to the overall rating of the build. Now, there are a few problems in the reasoning of your vote. You say: "As for the builds themselves, they seem to lack any actual synergy (probably because, as I said, they're a totally random jumble of popular builds). There's very little that actually ties them together. If the page didn't directly claim this to be a "physical support team", I'd say they were just a standard random selection of heroes." The build is, of course, meant to be used with two physical Players (at least one melee, preferably two), and the synergy comes from Barbs, Mark of Pain, Weaken Armor, Splinter Weapon, Strength of Honor, Order of Pain, Dark Fury, Blood Bond and Mark of Fury. Signet of Spirits deals 36 DPS on its own, and with Spirit Siphon, it's how your Hero will fuel Strength of Honor. Normally, I'd suggest Painful Bond to make better use of the Spirits, but Heroes don't use the skill effectively (they only cast it on foes within the area). The other "solid" Channeling Magic skills like Spirit Rift are rarely used, because they aren't very solid at all; they don't ignore armor, and in HM, you can never expect the stated amount. Even with Cracked Armor, 71% can be a high estimate. Enfeebling Blood is on the N/Rt's bar, likely because it wouldn't fit on the SS's bar; I wouldn't have split the attributes for it (I'd take another copy of Splinter+Ancestors' Rage), so I'll give you that. The Jagged Bones has Cure Hex, because it also has Dwayna's Sorrow, so it's already speccing into Healing Prayers, and is the only bar doing so. All those skills that seem secondary to the each bar's purpose (i.e. utility, defensive or offensive) are there, because most PvE Teams should have them; it doesn't really matter where they are, as long as they're there. Two hard resurrections are a good amount, tbh; if one of the two Heroes dies, the other will rez him, and if your team loses both, you probably would have been wiped, anyway. My most important point, however, is about Energy management: this couldn't be further from the truth; 9 Soul Reaping and Signet of Lost Souls is the equivalent of having a total of 9 pips of Energy regeneration: 3 points of Energy every second. [[User:St. Michael|'ــѕт.']][[user_talk:St. Michael|'мıкε']] 23:40, April 17, 2010 (UTC) :I changed the build a little: weaken armor has been dropped so it can fit an extra copy of splinter and a-rage and the Rt/Me now has a rez (you can always drop that hero for a second N/Rt though). [[User:Toraen|'Toraen']]TheJanitorimage:ToraenSig2.png 00:39, 18 April 2010 (UTC) :I appreciate the welcome, and am happy to explain my vote. It's worth noting that the entire list of physical support abilities you've just named are located on a total of three of the heroes, overall. That leaves three heroes who essentially play little to no role in actually physical support. Now yes, it's pretty logical to have a pair of healers and a bomber necro in any given group in PvE. That's pretty standard party composition. But that doesn't make this entire team "physical support", that makes half the group support and the other half is standard party composition. It would be more oriented towards a physical support group if, for example, the Jagged bomber was a smite-bomber rather than a Dwayna's bomber. Essentially what I'm saying is that the bomber and two healer heroes should really either provide some sort of direct support to the physicals other than healing, or probably shouldn't be listed because they're not *really* contributing to the physical support intentions of the build, they're just being added into the list to make a nice clean 2-6 party. :The energy regained by Soul Reaping is entirely dependent on the deaths of nearby allies or enemies. 9 points in Soul Reaping means that SoLS will only provide 6 energy every 8 seconds, meaning that the remainder must be made up in quick kills. So I'm unsure where you are getting the 3 energy per second figure, perhaps it will make more sense if you break down that calculation for me? Now it's admittedly mildly reliable to expect Soul Reaping to help here, since one of your heroes is a bomber and bombers do provide an ample source of deaths, but I personally wouldn't count on it being enough on its own. I run a Jagged bomber hero very similar to the one in that team build, and even with Foul Feast, SoLS, and Soul Reaping, she still manages to run out of energy. How she does this is literally beyond me (perhaps the AI just hates me?), but I have watched her do it time and time again. So I cannot be confident in the idea that SoLS and Soul Reaping alone will fuel a hero, because the AI is fantastic at mismanaging itself. :It's understandable that the player would want some hex removal for Hard Mode, but it's arguable whether it is most worthwhile to add it to the bar of the Jagged bomber when you're running a pair of restoration healers. Why not try to apply it there, making one of the heroes a Rt/Mo? And since you've only got one hero with hex removal for the entire party of 8 individuals, you're almost better off not having it at all and trying to outheal the hexes instead. Having it in the bar of a Jagged bomber just doesn't sit well with me when there are also healers in the group, it doesn't really fit and feels more like it was thrown in as an afterthought than as a completely intentional move. :Also, I have to say that it's taking a decent gamble assuming that the two rez carriers won't both wipe except in cases where the whole party was toast anyways. I've had a fair number of times where that wasn't the case. It's simply better to carry at least three sets of rez (on the off-chance your healers both bite it) because it can mean the difference between avoiding a party wipe and submitting to one. :That all said, I definitely approve of the changes made by Toraen. That third rez makes the entire party a bit more comfortable and harder to wipe out (the Rt/Me didn't really need that third e-management interrupt anyways, Tease and Power Drain will easily fuel even the craziest of AI spammers in PvE), and the shifting of Enfeebling Blood out of the resto healer definitely improves it overall. It's also nice to have a second source of Splinter, the points are better served that way anyways. Those changes are enough to make me up my vote a little bit. It's still not "perfect" (that is, it still doesn't encompass what I'd personally call a "total physical support team"), but the changes are definitely to my liking and I can't fault the build too much for using what works. BuildKitten 02:16, April 18, 2010 (UTC) ::I messed up somewhere in my calculations: Soul Reaping heals for your rank 3 times every 15 seconds; at 9, that's 1.8 Energy per second. SoLS is 0.7272 Energy per second, and you've already got 1.33 Energy per second. The total (including your natural Energy regen) is 3.86 Energy per second. Rt/Mo probably wouldn't have much Energy, because, as you can see, the Rt/Me uses its Elite to manage its Energy. Also, you insist that every Hero bring physical support, but what else exactly are you looking for? Really, it just seems like you want to move skills around, but it doesn't make a difference unless your Heroes can save a few attribute points or you can compress the team. If you are looking to compress the team, I had been working on something here. Any suggestions are welcome. [[User:St. Michael|'ــѕт.']][[user_talk:St. Michael|'мıкε']] 03:12, April 18, 2010 (UTC) ::Also, you missed smite hex; there are 2 hex removals in the team mainbars (with Empathic Removal mentioned as a variant to Spiteful Spirit for hex-heavy areas). [[User:Toraen|'Toraen']]TheJanitorimage:ToraenSig2.png 03:49, 18 April 2010 (UTC) :::Yeah, I just noticed Smite Hex. I admit I missed it in my first look. I suppose I *am* looking for a bit of team compression in a sense. It just doesn't make much sense to me that a team build which is titled as physical support but has half the heroes provide almost no support at all to your physical human players. I took a look at your version, Mike, and it's quite interesting. It does work a bit better than this one, at least in my opinion, and it's a lot more orderly (as opposed to the skills that are just sorta scattered about in this one). BuildKitten 04:12, April 18, 2010 (UTC) Your vote on Comparing anything to an imbagon is probably a bad idea since it is arguably the best PvE build ever in Guild Wars, also we have no decent bow builds on PvX exept for Barrage which is too generic and IA which is at best mediocre, so while bows kinda suck we still need a decent build for them --(Talk) 08:59, May 7, 2010 (UTC) :And, as I said, it is a decent build. It's just not the best way for a Ranger to adrenaline-pump. Barrage can do it better. As for the comparison to an imbagon, the only reason I said that is because people were boasting it as second best only to the imbagon....but it's important to note just how far below the top spot this build really is. If you don't want it compared to an imbagon, don't say it's second only to the imbagon. Otherwise you're just asking for people to point out how far below the top spot it really is. :P :Really, if you look at it, it's basically a Barrage build but with Barrage replaced for Volley so that the elite slot is opened up. The framework is pretty much identical, honestly: multi-arrow skill, two interrupts, IAS. The usage is even the same as a Barrage-adrenal build, with the only difference being "place spirit as necessary". It's hard to give the build points for trying when it's pretty obvious where the framework came from, but I did anyways because the concept was somewhat clever and there are occasions where the spirit's adrenal buff to all your allies can be very useful (like a Physical-way). :I'm quite honestly not sure about these boasts that it's the best way to gain adrenaline short of an imbagon (which is wrong, as the basic math in my vote shows that Barrage does the same job better) and that it's a great build which lots of rangers would run. I tend to think some of the people voting on these builds have never once attempted to run either the build itself or even the profession itself. Ranger spirits are pretty well known in the game for being nigh-useless in harder areas of the game due to their poor health and armor ratings, as well as their "gives boosts to foe and friend alike" nature. Their only use is in niche cases, like Edge of Extinction in the Foundry, and even then the strategy is heavily dependent on placing the spirit either out of aggro range or body-blocking to help defend it from being slaughtered. That build is a good one for generic areas, but it's not the kind of build that a Ranger runs in Hard Mode or more difficult areas. It's simply not dependable enough. I knew from the moment I placed my vote that people would tell me otherwise, but as a person who actually used that spirit for a while, I can tell you that it's not the kind of build which most people run standard. :Points for trying, but not giving it points beyond what I already did. The build is limited to easier realms of the game where the spirit is more easily defended, it's inferior to a Barrage-adrenal build which pumps out more than twice as much damage per second while maintaining an equal amount of adrenaline gain per second, and the entire strategy of this build falls apart if enemy monsters happen to kill a spirit which has only 38 armor to defend itself. That means that it's taking 146.41% of the damage of AR 60, and it only has 120 Health....the likelihood of it surviving a direct attack in harder locations is very small. :Also, I should add to my notes that I didn't even address the build's other obvious flaws: ::1) No condition removal (blind totally neuters the build, yet this build lacks any way to fix this) ::2) No rez (it's generally unwise to run harder PvE regions without at least a Rez Signet, unless your group is okay with wiping) :If the build is given more high votes by other players, then it can return to "Great" status if that's really so important. But it's worth noting that it's not a great build. It's good at best. BuildKitten 15:09, May 7, 2010 (UTC) ::Res are debatable with scrolls, and condition removal, the back/midline says hi :D them two points dont really matter. The advantage of IH+ volley over barrage is that your physicals get a nice adrenaline boost, unlike if you took fgj for only your self. Its useful, but no i cant say its worth of a 5-5 either :D just wanted to point that out as i didnt see it been mentioned, and wasnt sure if you were aware of that aspect with a phys heavy team( no offense intended!) good day![[User:Jayson Rayne|''Jayson]][[User talk:Jayson Rayne|MaxxFury]] 15:52, May 7, 2010 (UTC) :::Why do people always assume that standing in the back row somehow makes you immune to conditions? That's among the more hilarious notions I've ever heard. xD I don't mean to offend but the very idea is just preposterously silly. I'll grant that the rez isn't required by any means (but it certainly doesn't hurt in most cases to bring along). But this notion that standing in the back somehow makes you never get targeted for condition infliction is laughable. If your entire build depends heavily on hitting your foes and this ability is neutered by a fairly common condition, you bring condition removal. I don't care WHERE in the field you're standing, that's just being prepared. :P BuildKitten 16:50, May 7, 2010 (UTC) ::::Well, its more that everyone takes condition removal on other party members (particularly Build:N/Rt SoLS Healer) - same with resses really. - [[User:Athrun Feya|''Athrun]][[User talk:Athrun Feya|''Feya]] - 17:13, May 7, 2010 (UTC) ::::So do you go bring condition removal if you're a sin/warrior/dervish as well? Spaggage [[User talk:Spaggage|talk]] 18:39, May 7, 2010 (UTC) :::::What, you mean personally? Probably not on them (but there ARE options for bringing condition removal on those professions too, if they just dedicate a smart secondary profession), but on the other hand, none of the previously stated professions have one of the most absurdly easy to use condition removals in the game in the form of Antidote Signet, now do they? A Ranger running without Antidote Signet or some form of replacement is a very unintelligent Ranger, as that signet's probably one of the best forms of condition self-removal in the entire game. :P BuildKitten 22:59, May 7, 2010 (UTC) ::::::I've never needed it as a ranger myself in groups. Mend Body and Soul and/or Foul Feast on my heroes is excellent condition removal. No point in using up one of my slots for it when my heroes react fast enough to make it unneeded. [[User:Toraen|'Toraen']]TheJanitorimage:ToraenSig2.png 23:21, 7 May 2010 (UTC) Ignoring everything that reads above, and having a look at your recently removed vote on http://pvx.wikia.com/index.php?title=Build:R/W_Infuriating_Savior&action=rate, remember that you have 7 other party members, who don't benefit from your little bigger adrenaline gain of Barrage. --ςοάχ? -- 22:31, June 9, 2010 (UTC) :Except that it's not "a little more adrenaline". It's EQUAL adrenaline to the IH-Volley Ranger at minimum, and far better at maximum. The only way that an IH-Volley ranger becomes better than a Barrage one for adrenaline gain is if the ranger places IH close enough to the front for the warriors to benefit. It's useless in most practical scenarios, it's restricted mostly to a physical-way. There is a reason you almost never see rangers running IH. :As for its removal, that's mostly because, as I said, PvX tends towards elitism. The self-proclaimed experts say they know what's good and what isn't, but I guarantee you that most if not all of those who rated that build so highly have never run an IH ranger in their lives. I have, and I can tell you it's inferior to a Barrage ranger. BuildKitten 00:55, June 10, 2010 (UTC) ::Spirit range is around compass range or something, I find it challenging to miss that. As soon as you have a single other adrenaline based character, all your arguments become redundant. No, wait, fuck, all your arguments ''are redundant because none of that reflect what I said above. --ςοάχ? -- 01:22, June 10, 2010 (UTC) :::It's about 1/2 of compass range. [[User:Toraen|'Toraen']]TheJanitorimage:ToraenSig2.png 01:49, 10 June 2010 (UTC) ::::That's 2.3x your aggro bubble. I too am a little careless, so I do tend to fuck up my spirit summons with a "disaster radius" of about 5 aggro bubbles. --ςοάχ? -- 01:52, June 10, 2010 (UTC) It's annoying to come back and back about one fucking vote, but I still would like to point out that your understanding of "efficiency" and "universality" doesn't exactly show in your vote. How good is the build at its given purpose, and how well does the build adapt to a new given situation when things don't go as planned. Nothing also indicates that it's meant for general PvE, and even if it maybe is niche, then you vote on it based on its efficiency in a given niche. --ςοάχ? -- 01:47, June 10, 2010 (UTC) :Did I step into a bizzaro universe where universality doesn't have the base word "universal", meaning "applicable everywhere"? I reiterate that this build does not meet said criteria. You're welcome to disagree with me, but it's fairly obvious from the noticeable lack of nature-spirit-heavy builds on PvX, as well as the obvious notion that any effects they produce apply both ways and thus can be a double-edged sword if used wrong, that nature spirits are a gimmick typically reserved for niche uses, and are NOT relied heavily upon for general purpose PvE. If "universality" according to PvX's dictionary is "how good is it in its niche", then perhaps you should petition PvX's admins to change the word to something that actually means that. Universality does not mean "good in a specific niche", it means "good everywhere", thus the base word "universal". I suggest, before you get pissy with me about the definition of a term, that you look it up to make sure it means what you think it means. My vote for its lack of universality is because it's NOT universal, according to the dictionary definition of the word. Don't like it? Perhaps you can recommend to PvX that they should pick a word that better encompasses your desired meaning. :The build is labeled "general PvE" so a logical individual might conclude that the build should probably work in general PvE. But perhaps that just makes too much sense? As has been noted nearly a thousand times in the past (including at least once in the above statements that you yourself admit you didn't bother to read), the build relies heavily on proper placement of the spirit: far back enough to keep it out of the aggro range of any enemies who break aggro with the warriors, but close enough for the warriors to benefit. That is a difficult balance to strike, and in Hard Mode I'd argue it's almost impossible in tougher areas since the enemies are generally stronger, have a smarter AI which would cause them to peg the spirit as a priority target, and the spirit's overall health and defense are borderline pitiful in HM. :I, once more, should point out that your argument is based on the following logic: "having at least one other physical individual automatically makes this build superior". This is inherently fallacious logic due to previous discussions (again, which you did not read). This build is best served as a support unit for a heavy-physical team, like a physical-way. It is relatively inferior beyond that. BuildKitten 02:27, June 10, 2010 (UTC) ::I'm going to let your vote stick, but I will point out that a 3.0 vote is a 'Trash' rating, while in your reasoning you state: "It's, quite simply, not a "great" human build. It's good, and has its niches, but it's not great." It's a minor issue, as the build is currently in Good, so I'm not removing it again based solely on that. [[User:Toraen|'Toraen']]TheJanitorimage:ToraenSig2.png 02:43, 10 June 2010 (UTC) ::My god, please don't make me admin of these people. I had happily forgotten what they can be like. --ςοάχ? -- 11:22, June 10, 2010 (UTC) bows suck at pve and so does the ih ranger /fin--[[User:Relyk|'Relyk']] talk 02:09, June 10, 2010 (UTC) :I correct arguments, not numbers. --ςοάχ? -- 11:22, June 10, 2010 (UTC) ::WTF walls of text Q________Q That Ranger fails, you should put killing stuff before SY! in PvE. --Iggy 's other account 11:24, June 10, 2010 (UTC)